Accepted/Completed Changing Retake Point System

4eveR

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With the new implantation of the ranking system in retake servers I've heard many players since the change was added complain about the point system. from being faced against low ranking players playing on the servers for their first time or going through a rough bit and consistently dying for an entire match losing points is just way to easy on these servers especially when you get at max 6-7 points at max per kill for players LE and higher. I love playing on these servers but the consistent struggle of facing a bunch of nova/mg take 11+ points per death. In conclusion the struggle is real on retakes for the high ranking players, finding it that you need to consistently maintain 3-4 kills per death just makes the matches unnecessarily competitive for people just trying to win and chill/not care doing it. personally I would lower death points from e.x. 11 points to 7-8 points if point comparison is higher than 300 between players.
 

sneaK

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I have gone ahead and temporarily disabled the bonus points as outlined here: https://snksrv.com/threads/server-update-12-29-19.2796/

I do plan on re-enabling it at some point with a more mild point gain/loss - I agree with your sentiment, and I have heard similar feedback from others.

I'll keep this thread open until that change comes :emoji_thumbsup:
 

sneaK

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Fixed a issue where on Retakes #1 Terrorists were still gaining bonus points, misconfiguration error on my part.

Here is the bonus points formula:
Code:
Standard Kill points X + (([Victim Score] - [Attacker Score]) / [Points Difference Required to gain bonus points]) * [Bonus Points Enabled/Disabled]
So under the old settings, here is the formula for a new player with 1500 points killing a player with 2500 points:
Code:
4 + ((2500-1500) / 100) x 1 = 14 Points
Now, if we raise the amount of points difference required to gain bonus points to 200, here is the same example using 1500 points winning over 2500 points:
4 + ((2500-1500) / 200) x 1 = 9 Points

I also used the same example and raised to 400 required points difference, however it became 6.5 points, which I believe is too little of a difference for such a large points disparity between the players.

It seems like changing the minimum required points value to 200 is the way to go here. Let's go with a few more examples to see how this will play out:
Code:
Victim: 3000
Attacker: 2000
4 + ((3000-2000) / 200) * 1 = 9 Points

Victim: 1500
Attacker: 1200
4 + ((1500-1200) / 200) * 1 = 5.5 Points (Rounded up to 6)

Victim: 1850
Attacker: 1400
4 + ((1850-1400) / 200) x 1 = 6.25 Points (Rounded up to 7)

Victim: 2000
Attacker: 3000
4 + ((2000-3000) / 200) x 1 = -1 Points (The player will "lose" 1 point from the base score of 4 due to the score disparity)
Back to the core sentiment, I believe that even if you are a better ranked player going through a rough patch or not playing well, you are indeed deserving to lose those points. Eventually you will rebound and average out back to where you should be. This is all essentially the point of a competitive ELO system - to properly balance out ranks. Any thoughts on everything above?
 
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sneaK

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I know it's a bit abrupt, but I've deployed the above changes and re-enabled bonus points. I did this because it seems as though player points without penalty of elevated loss of points per death are inflating player ranks quite quickly.

Would love to hear feedback!
 
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I'm not any sort of mathematical genius, but I play quite a bit of retakes and I have some ideas on how the points could be adjusted to balance things out a bit more.

The newer system was better, in my opinion, than the old one, simply because it was a bit more balanced. On the downside, it was quite a bit "overpowered" for ranking up, as you would infinitely gain ELO/points from just having a positive K/D ratio.

The current/old system is very obnoxious. The higher you go, the more points you lose. For example, being at 4,000 points would cause you to lose around 20 points when any sort of gold nova or lower kills you, and in exchange you would only get about 2-4 points for killing them.

Here's my idea for a better system:
Players that join the server for the first time should start out at about 1,000 points.

0 - 999 | 6 points per kill, -4 points per death
1000 - 1499 | 5 points per kill, -4 points per death
1500 - 1999 | 4 points per kill, -4 points per death
2000 - 2999 | 3 points per kill, -4 points per death
3000 - 3499 | 2 points per kill, -4 points per death
3500 - infinity | 2 points per kill, -5 points per death

Ranks should all reset back to 1,000 at the same time every week. This would provide active players to grind up the ranks again instead of just sitting at GE forever.

I'm not opposed to some sort of bonus point system. I think that would work very well for players in the higher ELO to give them an extra boost at gaining points, but I think it should be half points. These could be given for winning rounds, headshot kills, and a whole point for aces.

Let me know what you think. I'll make edits if I think of something else, or if I remember something that I forgot.

KKona sneaK
 

sneaK

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The current/old system is very obnoxious. The higher you go, the more points you lose.
That's quite literally the point of an ELO system. Lose to a worse player, lose more points. Defeat a higher ranked player, gain more points.

What you outlined wouldn't be an ELO system at all, that would be a degraded static point system based off of arbitrary numbers. Any proper ELO system (including Valve's own matchmaking system) works in the way that ours does. If you are a Global and you lose to silvers, your ELO drops like a rock, as it should - same concept here.

Going further, what you suggested implies that anyone in the 3000+ range needs to maintain a 2.0 K/D or better to even maintain that rank, let alone progress. Your current score is 3714, which would be impossible with your K/D of 1.20 - this would roughly land you around the 1500-1999 point bracket as you outlined. In fact, of every single player in the database that has over 200 kills (2000+ players), only 28 of those players have a 2.0 K/D or higher.

I don't believe points should reset - we have players that can only be on during weekends, or are away for several days. Frequent, or even monthly resets would make a ranking system pointless for them. I want to cater to everyone, not just those who play every day.
 
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Alright, if you want to get technical about it, your system being an "ELO" system, losing more points to lower ranked players, that's absolute garbage. Being a global elite right now is all about who is actually in the server. Not even based off of your KD.

Do you realize that people that just join the server start at gold nova 2? How is somebody going to maintain a high rank when they're losing 100 points throughout a single game when they end with a 2.5 KD ratio? If my system that I stated isn't an ELO system, then whatever. Make it a non ELO system, because the current system is garbage. Do as you please

And also, why are you comparing my current rank to where it would place me in the new system? It shouldn't be easy to get global elite. It shouldn't be easy at all to go beyond that. It's a new system for a reason. Of course I wouldn't be at 4k points with it. The only reason anybody is at 3.5K+ right now is because of the terrible system that was in place for a few days.
 
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sneaK

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Being a global elite right now is all about who is actually in the server. Not even based off of your KD.
Could you expand on that? Not sure I follow

Do you realize that people that just join the server start at gold nova 2?
Yep! I modeled the system after the percentiles that are used in Valve's matchmaking, and GN2 is the median rank as of November 2019, so this is where new players start. They can climb the ranks or step down depending on how they perform.

And also, why are you comparing my current rank to where it would place me in the new system? It shouldn't be easy to get global elite. It shouldn't be easy at all to go beyond that.
I agree, it shouldn't be easy! I was providing current rankings for context.

The only reason anybody is at 3.5K+ right now is because of the terrible system that was in place for a few days.
That we can definitely both agree on - goes to show that arbitrary plus and minus static points with little to no adjustment based upon skill basically ruins the system and just caters to those who spend the most time playing. They could be totally average players with a 1.1 KD and just grind a ton of time, and get top rank.

All in all I really do want to keep talking about this, and figure out a good solution. I think we're a lot closer now than we were before by making the bonus/penalty quite about half as impactful, while still maintaining proper balance. I also think there's a bit of confusion - bonus points/"ELO" part of the system was disabled for a few days, and that's what really wrecked havoc and caused many players to gain far more points than they should have. I simply re-enabled it, while essentially almost halving the bonus points, I posted the formula up above.

I think we do need to get technical about it, because a well balanced system requires a informed and complex formula. While not everyone may like it, being fair and balanced is key!
 
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Could you expand on that? Not sure I follow
I can answer this with a very clear example. Right now, I'm about 3800 points. I was going down in points earlier because there were gold novas and MGs in the server. When they killed me, I would lose too many points. Right now, the entire server is pretty much filled with globals. When I die right now, I'm losing the same points as I am gaining, despite my high elo. I understand this is how it's meant to be, but that's why I don't think the points you gain/lose should be based off of who kills you.

Yep! I modeled the system after the percentiles that are used in Valve's matchmaking, and GN2 is the median rank as of November 2019, so this is where new players start. They can climb the ranks or step down depending on how they perform.
I understand this, but I think if the system is going to be the way it is, it would be greatly improved by starting players at a much higher rank. This would make it so if there is actually a gold nova 2 in your lobby, they wouldn't actually be very good. You also wouldn't be able to just derank because an extremely good player joins for the first time and is just stealing 20 points from you every kill.

I also think there's a bit of confusion - bonus points/"ELO" part of the system was disabled for a few days, and that's what really wrecked havoc and caused many players to gain far more points than they should have. I simply re-enabled it, while essentially almost halving the bonus points, I posted the formula up above.
I still don't understand this? What are the "bonus points"? Are you saying that the bonus points are just the extra 16 points that a gold nova would gain from killing a global elite? If so, that's the main problem with this system, from my experience. At first, I thought the bonus points were just the headshot points, winning round points, etc.

Like I said previously, I'm not a mathematical genius. I can't create some flawless formula for a point system. But I do have pretty good ideas how the points should be. The system that I stated previously is still something that I think would work amazingly. I'm not opposed to the points gained/lost being adjusted, but I believe that some sort of system like that would be great.

Rapperdan was talking to me about how it should be based off of rounds won, and not kills at all. I completely agree that's how it should be; it's retakes, it makes sense. That being said, if it were like that, everybody would simply be around the exact same rank, which would take out the entire point of the system. If it were to be like this, there would need to be some other way to gain points to distinguish the default points from winning or losing.
 

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Welp, thought I replied to this but I guess I didn't.

I understand this, but I think if the system is going to be the way it is, it would be greatly improved by starting players at a much higher rank. This would make it so if there is actually a gold nova 2 in your lobby, they wouldn't actually be very good. You also wouldn't be able to just derank because an extremely good player joins for the first time and is just stealing 20 points from you every kill.
That's a great point, I've gone ahead and done the calculation and now start new players at an average rating of 1800. This change is live as of right now.

I still don't understand this? What are the "bonus points"? Are you saying that the bonus points are just the extra 16 points that a gold nova would gain from killing a global elite?
Exactly! I'm sorry you don't like it - but that's how an ELO system works. You can't just endlessly farm points on players lesser of your skill - this is how Matchmaking ranks work, this is how ESEA rating works, this is how every ELO system ever functions.

Rapperdan was talking to me about how it should be based off of rounds won, and not kills at all. I completely agree that's how it should be; it's retakes, it makes sense. That being said, if it were like that, everybody would simply be around the exact same rank, which would take out the entire point of the system. If it were to be like this, there would need to be some other way to gain points to distinguish the default points from winning or losing.
You, and everyone on your team gains additional points for winning the round. Ranking is more heavily lenient on your personal achievements and less on the team, due to the nature of being a public server. You shouldn't be heavily penalized because you have brand new players on your team, for example.

I don't think there's been much more discussion about the ranking system once the previous changes were put in place, and now that ranks have evened out. I'll schedule this topic to be moved out in about a week's time if there is no more discussion 👍
 

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